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One of the most toxic parts of reconciliation for me has been ambiguity. I do not mean ambiguity about motives or uncertainty about whether the marriage will survive. I mean the simple question of if I actually know all the secrets.

I have always had a strong "let them" mentality. If someone wants to leave, let them leave. If someone wants someone else, let them choose that. I am not interested in controlling another person, convincing them to stay with me, desire me, or behaving a certain way because I am monitoring them closely enough. I am no ones jailer

"Let them" can create a lot of peace, but only if reality is available. Someone can choose whatever they want if they can be trusted to disclose what they are choosing. I can accept an ugly truth. I can make decisions based on painful information. I cannot peacefully live inside a version of reality that may be incomplete while the person who knows the rest decides whether I am allowed to have it.

That is where ambiguity becomes toxic.

I believe she has given me all of the facts. That is just it though… I do not KNOW that she has. After infidelity, every withheld fact has a second effect beyond the fact itself. Uncertainty is a given. There may be more. Something remembered later may change the meaning of what came before. A detail that was denied may eventually be admitted. An answer that is "I do not remember" today may become something much more specific six months from now.

Recovery is sometimes framed as learning not to obsess over details, not to control, not to monitor, and not to keep asking questions. I agree with the goal. I do not want to live that way either. Peace becomes impossible, though, if I am being asked to stop checking reality while reality itself is still unreliable.

"Let them" only works when the other person is honest enough that they do not have to be investigated.

If my wife wants something different, I can deal with that. If she no longer wants the marriage, I can deal with that. If she wants another person, I can deal with that. If something happens/happened that is painful, or difficult to hear, I can deal with that too. What I cannot deal with peacefully is not knowing whether I have been given enough truth to make my own decisions.

[This message edited by LittleMonk at 4:42 PM, Thursday, November 5th]

LM

This is exactly what haunts me every day. I believe the details he's given me, but I don't believe it's complete.

The reason I say this is because his actions and his words don't match up. Granted his A (the only thing he's admitted to) took place 44 yrs ago and he waited 41 yrs to tell me about it, I have NO way to hold him accountable. I have No way to prove anything he says. I am asked to eat the narrative he serves me. A tidy little serving. You would have thought after 42 yrs to think about it, he would have presented a whole meal. A table full of details to explain why he chose to lie, cheat, steal and deceive his "best friend and partner". The best he could do was give me a nibble and a lot of I don't knows.

After infidelity, every withheld fact has a second effect beyond the fact itself. Uncertainty is a given. There may be more. Something remembered later may change the meaning of what came before. A detail that was denied may eventually be admitted. An answer that is "I do not remember" today may become something much more specific six months from now.

Oh, how I wished he'd offer me more. I can tell he's scared. I've asked him over and over to please not hesitate to share a memory or thought, but shame keeps him silent. I guess when you know you hold all the cards you keep them close to your chest.

I cannot peacefully live inside a version of reality that may be incomplete while the person who knows the rest decides whether I am allowed to have it.

This^

I think this is the biggest reconciliation killer of them all.

You don’t want to say something horrible you did because you’re ashamed for it to be known.

But you have done something horrible, 5is is already known.
Silencing truth or feeding shame is actually protecting the horrible stuff you did at the cost of everything else.

You are not protecting yourself, it’s already out, can’t go lower than the already lowest. You aren’t protecting your partner, you are actually ensuring everything rots eaten by the secrets like a cancer.

And for sure you aren’t protecting the relationship or allowing reconciliation.

You are only protecting the affair.
Once more, you are choosing to place the affair above everything else.
Again.

LittleMonk,

I admire the way your brain works and you are extremely articulate. The way you laid out your quandary, for me, is easy to see myself in it as well.

If my wife wants something different, I can deal with that. If she no longer wants the marriage, I can deal with that. If she wants another person, I can deal with that. If something happens/happened that is painful, or difficult to hear, I can deal with that too. What I cannot deal with peacefully is not knowing whether I have been given enough truth to make my own decisions.

I think we might both agree that for a variety of reasons, some intentional, some not, a betrayed spouse will never have all the truth. If that is true then the question becomes, what constitutes "enough truth" to bring peace to a betrayed spouse?

For me, it is my 35 years of relentless seeking truth that has brought me the greatest amount of disruption to my inner peace. Over the past year I have been working on myself to not only "let them" as you put it, but to "let it be" as well. To keep reminding myself to "let it be" as it is today. Sounds somewhat easy but letting the present exist as it is now without dragging the past into the equation has proven to be a arduous task that I am not well equipped, but I am determined to strengthen my abilities for that is where I see hope in finding my peace for I have come to understand that I am the shooter of the second arrow.

Asterisk

Over the past year I have been working on myself to not only "let them" as you put it, but to "let it be" as well.

It’s funny that you mention that.

I am very agentic. So much so, in fact, that this is the current course I am taking. If I can accept that there are secrets, and that there could be, maybe even likely will be, secrets in the future, including infidelity.

It seems to be the only way I can, at least currently, find peace within the marriage. Again, she has been doing everything "right" according to most reconciliation standards, and I am about 80% sure I know everything. There is always that doubt, though. We can never be 100% sure, and if we are, I think we are fooling ourselves. The only option left is to accept the risk.

For me, that means using agency to give up agency.

LittleMonk,

I am very agentic. So much so, in fact, that this is the current course I am taking. If I can accept that there are secrets, and that there could be, maybe even likely will be, secrets in the future, including infidelity.

You as an agentic - yes I have seen that you are in other things you have written and that is why I was a little puzzled by this post where it appeared to me that you were relying on your wife to find your internal peace.

Don’t misunderstand me, I do that far more than I should. But I do not subscribe fully to the "detachment" theory either.) However, I see the pain I carry, so late in the process, is due to my desire for attachment. So, I am reevaluating it. Maybe "agentic" is something I need to further develop. I already subscribe to it in many areas of my life but not when it comes to my relationship with my wife. Though I have tried to deconstruct my original faith-based belief that when a man and a woman marry they were no longer two individuals but on entity and I still carry shards of that teaching that cause me unnecessary pain.

For me, that means using agency to give up agency

Brilliant, well put. I can see I have a lot to learn from you.

Asterisk

You as an agentic - yes I have seen that you are in other things you have written and that is why I was a little puzzled by this post where it appeared to me that you were relying on your wife to find your internal peace.

It’s actually been quite the opposite. Like I mentioned, my wife has done everything "largely" correct. We have what many would consider great indicators of what reconciliation should look like. We are connected, we are best friends, we love each other, and the Gottman Four Horsemen are not present. Yet I am not at peace.

My instincts probably should have had me exit the relationship at dday. Being mindful and rational, however, I wanted to make sure I understood what I wanted and did not leave without thinking everything through. Since dday, though, I have had to actively choose to stay, everyday. My wife is doing everything largely right, but staying has still been a constant struggle. I have the instinct to rabbit even on the best days.

I have stayed because I have determined that the cost of leaving > than the cost of staying, especially because the marriage is objectively "great" except for the betrayal stain. That is not the same as relying on my wife to give me peace. If anything, the problem is that she can not give it to me.

If I am going to stay, I have to find that peace myself. That is where "using agency to give up agency" comes in. I cannot make uncertainty disappear, and I cannot guarantee that I know everything or that I always will. I can only decide whether I am willing to live with that reality.

So far, it has been working.

[This message edited by LittleMonk at 1:57 PM, Friday, November 6th]

LittleMonk,

If you’re comfortable sharing, what did your fact-gathering consist of? Is it mostly her word, and did you ask her to take a polygraph?

I have stayed because I have determined that the cost of leaving > than the cost of staying, especially because the marriage is objectively "great" except for the betrayal stain.

That’s only half the equation though…how do the benefits stack up?

If you’re comfortable sharing, what did your fact-gathering consist of? Is it mostly her word, and did you ask her to take a polygraph?

She opened all of her devices and let me read all of their electronic communication. Then there were days of me asking questions and mentally cross referencing what she told me against the messages. I also went back and read our own text messages from the same time period. I had suspected her through much of the affair, and there were specific events where I had been suspicious that later lined up with what she told me. It was quite the inquisition.

She also gave me an incredible amount of detail, and I asked for an incredible amount of detail. I know things about the AP that he would probably be mortified to know I know. I am not going to recommend that level of detail for everyone, but if she was willing to tell me all of that, I have a hard time imagining what she would still be deliberately leaving out. She also, on her own, confessed to something completely unrelated to the affair. It felt like she had reached a point where she was just going to get all of her secrets out.

Still...

I do not believe in polygraphs. I know a lot of people argue for them, but even if there is only a 1% chance of a false result in either direction, it does not actually solve the problem I have. The problem is that ambiguity exists. A polygraph cannot make uncertainty disappear. Plus, they are expensive.

The only option left is to accept the risk.

I learned to identify true changes in my WS, little things she couldn’t fake, such as no longer being so self contentious, a people pleaser, avoiding hard conversations, etc. This allowed me to validate she was learning and growing, and reducing the risk.

I had to strengthen and gain confidence, more than ever before. This dissolves the risk (the fear).

Forgiveness was hard. I was unable. I was not raised to deal with this. The affair history was eating at me. I delved into whys, hyper-assessed everything about people personalities and the world, and re-racked my personal beliefs and world view. This allowed me to build the capacity to forgive. It’s hard to explain but I’m a different person now because of this. This helped me with more than just with my wife’s affair.

SL

We can never be 100% sure, and if we are, I think we are fooling ourselves. The only option left is to accept the risk.

You can be sure of uncertainty as it is very rare that even you know or remember exactly how your story went.

On the other hand needing the "100%" sure as quantified is a teller of insecurity.

You know the truth and the truth can be told apart from lies.

Because truth doesn’t change, it’s low energy, you don’t need to invest in a narrative to keep it alive,, is recorded in the mind and can be recalled at any time.

Lies are high energy investment, the liar builds a narrative rich of details and consequentiality in order to be believable. Too many details is a strong teller (tiny details are worked and chiseled while main events are left nebulous to merge the lie with trickle truths, hoping details validates the narrative).

And the amount of brain power and energy you need to keep those false stories in mind is high. You can’t do it long term, no matter how good a story teller you may be.

So the narrative of lies changes because once they reached their alleged purpose (to trick, deceive and cheat) the investment is not sustainable. A lie will change when retold many times.

Truth doesn’t change.

And because of that when a liar tells you a lie, that very moment is real for you, it becomes part of your story and is true. And you remember the truth unchanging when it was something important to you.

So the liar will forget and tell variant, the lied will remember the story and spot the dissonances, because they are "updating" their reality with new data, and everything that is in dissonance will feel immediately off.

You know when you been lied and when you are told the truth.

You don’t need the 100% if the truth is contaminated by lies, that bit is enough to know everything you need.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:14 AM, Saturday, November 7th]

@still-living

Forgiveness was hard. I was unable. I was not raised to deal with this. The affair history was eating at me. I delved into whys, hyper-assessed everything about people personalities and the world, and re-racked my personal beliefs and world view. This allowed me to build the capacity to forgive. It’s hard to explain but I’m a different person now because of this. This helped me with more than just with my wife’s affair.

I’d really like to hear more about this, if you wouldn’t mind expanding. I’m at a place now where I want to learn how to understand the why and learn how to forgive, but it’s dawning on me that I may never.

Forgiveness- took me 6 years after dday2 to forgive my cheating husband. It was more than an affair - it was his plan to kick me to the curb for the much younger OW.

It took me until year 3 of reconciliation to finally feel like the black cloud lifted. I started focusing on my healing, my life came first and I did things I wanted to do w/out putting everyone else first 100% of the time.

As an example. If I wanted to do something — before Dday I’d think - well I have to cook dinner for the family & this kid needs X and H needs Y. After Dday I’d say - kids are capable of getting their own dinner and my H can take care of Y.

Sometimes I had to put kids’ needs before mine - but I stopped doing it automatically.

When I really concentrated on my happiness, I stopped focusing as much on the cheater & affair.

Every second I spent thinking about the affair — was time that the cheaters took from my happiness. And I was determined to get past that.

I would say I’m living my best life now. Very happy despite everything from those 12/13 years ago.

I’d really like to hear more about this, if you wouldn’t mind expanding. I’m at a place now where I want to learn how to understand the why and learn how to forgive, but it’s dawning on me that I may never.

I’d have to write a book!

Speaking of:

A great start for me was learning about the story of Brian and Anne Bercht, reading Anne’s book, and listening to their online seminars.

Books that impacted me included David Viscott’s "Emotional Resilience: Simple Truths for Dealing with the Unfinished Business of Your Past" and Eckhart Tolle’s "The Power of Now."

Basically, my work provided me with improved prescription eyeglasses that not only allowed me to see and understand how my wife chose to have an affair, but allows me to recognize other human behaviors within our world.

SL

Because truth doesn’t change, it is low energy. You do not have to invest in maintaining a narrative to keep it alive.

Omission is even lower energy.

My wife never actually lied to me. She simply did not tell me everything.

That is exactly why "the truth can be told apart from lies" does not solve the problem. There was no false narrative to detect. A person can preserve an incomplete reality simply by leaving information out.

I do not need to eliminate ambiguity so that I feel better. I need to find a way to be at peace with reconciliation despite the fact that some ambiguity will always remain.

But not telling takes immense energy, too. For that to work, the liar has to remember what was shared and what was held back. How does one do that for the rest of their life? How does one live with knowing they fucked up royally by their actions and the lies used to cover up the actions?

The truth does take less energy to keep going than lies do.

But significance of facts varies. My W gave some gifts to ow. The gifts didn't bother me - except for one specific gift that was trivial to my W - it was just a worn-out T-shirt to her. That T-shirt was a big deal to me, though.

After reacting, I decided that I could not expect her to read my mind. I asked, formulating my questions the best way I could. She answered as honestly as she could. That's one reason why I asked every question multiple times in multiple ways. I was mainly checking for inconsistent answers, but I also believed asking my questions might surface details that were important to me but not to my W.